The Benefits Of Volunteering (Podcast)

Paul Jacobs
Thanks, Amy, good to be here.

Amy Laburda
So Paul, this season, I wouldn't say it's a thesis, but we've talked in a lot of our episodes, and especially the first one, about

00:36
the nature of what wealth actually is. So to start off today, I figured let's tie in a little bit to that big picture. So why are we talking about giving back or volunteering as part of financial planning, as part of your financial picture?

Paul Jacobs
Thanks, Amy. Yes, I was spending some time thinking about this before the episode, of just, what is the connection here to other episodes? Obviously this is not officially a financial planning podcast but we are financial planners,

01:02
and we do think about and talk about financial planning topics. But a theme that has come up throughout this season, going back to that first episode with Larry Elkin, was talking about wealth, and “what is wealth?” And to some people, it's a simple answer: Wealth is just money, the more, the better. But the way Larry defined wealth, and I think it's something we also think about a lot here, is having options, having choices, having flexibility. Going back to the episode talking about job offers, for example,

01:29
it was discussed how the answer is not always just to take the job offer with the highest pay. It's not always as simple as that. There's other things to consider. And so I can certainly speak from experience that my, you know, my volunteer experience, my time in leadership for nonprofits has been extremely valuable. And I'm glad that I had that flexibility. I had that option. And I think that it's something that other listeners out there, you know, when they're thinking about what really matters to them, hopefully this will be helpful for them to hear as well.

Amy Laburda 01:58
Well, since you brought it up, I'll put you on the spot a little bit. Would you mind talking a little bit about your own experience working with nonprofits? What have you done sort of broadly and how did you first get involved?

Paul Jacobs
Sure. So I'll be speaking mainly about my volunteer experience with two large synagogues in the Atlanta area. While not everyone may be interested in religious volunteer experience, I do think that most of my experience is… There's plenty of overlap between religious or non-religious volunteering.

02:26
Before getting started, just a very quick overview that may be helpful, of kind of the main branches of Judaism in the U.S. I think this may come up later, so I think it would be helpful. First, there is Orthodox Judaism, which is how I grew up. Orthodox Judaism tends to be the most traditional and strict in terms of following rituals and rules going back to biblical times. And Orthodox is the smallest of the three branches, but it's also the fastest growing,

02:54
because a lot of families tend to have more children than average. The second branch is Reform Judaism. This is the largest branch in the U.S. and the synagogue I'm involved with now is a reform synagogue. Reform Judaism really seeks to take the core values of Judaism and bring them into the modern era. So there's more flexibility or personal choice when it comes to how you observe rituals and traditions.

03:21
And then the third branch is Conservative Judaism, which is kind of in the middle on lots of things. And it's a large group, but it has been shrinking because, like a lot of things in this country, social, political issues, a lot of the time people don't really want to be in the middle. A lot of the time people have a strong opinion. And so there has been kind of a migration from Conservative to Reform or to Orthodox, depending on what people are really looking for.

03:49
So hopefully that helps as we discuss my experience with some different organizations. So when I came to Atlanta in 2008, I didn't know anybody. I really didn't. And I tried a lot of things to get to know people and make connections and make friends. And one of the things that I did that really worked out well for me was getting involved in the Jewish community. A lot of people don't know just how large the Jewish community is in Atlanta. There's over 100,000 Jews

04:17
in the metro Atlanta area. So there's plenty of synagogues and communities and ways to get involved. I tried several different places, and I got involved at a large Conservative synagogue pretty quickly. I really was attracted to just the culture and the way they did things, the building. The synagogue went back to the 1800s, over a thousand members. It was large, and it was really great to get involved and to start giving back. I joined the board. I got involved in the budget and finance committee.

04:46
Something I think we'll be discussing more is just how you want to do things that you like or that you feel like you can make a difference. You don't want to be suffering in silence or anything like that. I worked my way up. I was chair of the budget/finance committee for several years. But in 2016, I stepped away. I think we'll talk more about when you know it's time to step away later on in this episode. I would say that while I definitely feel great about the experience I had, it was very valuable

05:15
I was able to make a big difference, but there were challenges. I think any nonprofit, even when things are good, it's always a struggle. It's always hard to kind of stay above water. And as I mentioned, Conservative Judaism — a lot of the demographics and the numbers go in the wrong direction. So a lot of meetings and debates could get tricky, because there were just issues of scarcity. Not enough resources, not enough money, not enough people, not enough volunteers. And it was tough

05:43
at times. So 2016, I stepped away, took a few years to kind of look for another way to get involved. And a few years later, I got involved at a Reform synagogue that we had switched to in the interim. So now… and that's where I'm involved to this day. This synagogue is very large, over 3,000 members, growing — everything kind of going… A lot of different debates, not so much about scarcity, but maybe more about abundance, you know, just like, what do we do with all these resources?

06:12
I joined the board. A big part of the synagogue is it's a preschool and Sunday school. So I was vice president of education for two years, not to design curriculums or teach or anything like… that's not a strength. But the growth was happening so quickly. A lot of people may know, you know, whether you're a for-profit or not-for-profit owner, the growth can be good, but it can be dangerous, right? I mean, growth unchecked can be a killer.

06:40
Things were growing quickly, but expenses were growing as fast, if not faster than revenues. So that's why they brought me in, to kind of right size the ship. And I feel really great about what we did there. We raised revenues, we cut expenses, and without really sacrificing quality. It was a great experience. After my two years were up, they asked me to become assistant treasurer. It's actually a four-year commitment. Two years as assistant treasurer, two years as treasurer.

07:06
Again, this is a large organization. The budget is over $8 million. So a lot of moving parts. And so I've only been assistant treasurer for a short time, but really looking forward to continuing to help in the future. It's been great and looking forward to the next several years.

Amy Laburda
Thanks for such a thorough answer. And a question that occurred to me as you were talking, which I guess I'll give a little context for: So at the risk of making this a religious studies podcast,

07:33
I grew up Protestant. Today I'm an Episcopalian. But I think one of the things that really influenced my decision as an adult to volunteer and to give back is that I saw my parents do it. That it's a thing that was a value in my family growing up. And you know, not the only place they volunteered, but our church was definitely one of the major places I saw my parents get involved. Did you come into your sort of Atlanta experience with an idea of, like, “Oh, I definitely

08:02
not only want to meet people, but, like, want to give back”? And if so, was that something that came from family or childhood, or was that a thing that you sort of came to on your own as an adult?

Paul Jacobs
It's an interesting question. Let's see, I don't think that my experience with Orthodox Judaism translated much to Conservative or Reform. There's just a lot of major differences, but I do think that...

08:26
you know, to just kind of learn how other organizations operate and to kind of be able to entrench myself and learn and help, find ways where I could be as valuable as possible. That was attractive to me. So hopefully that answers your question.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, I think so. And that kind of translates a little bit into, as a financial adviser, I imagine people volunteer and get involved for all sorts of reasons. But have you had clients sort of talk to you about, “Hey, I really

08:54
want to pass this on to my kids,” or “This is a thing that religiously I think is important.” Do you get into those kind of “why” questions, or is it a little more brass tacks, where they're like, “I've made this decision. This is what I'm going to be doing. This is my part of the plan.” You know, X, Y, Z.

Paul Jacobs
Right. And my answer is “sometimes.”

Amy Laburda
Yeah.

Paul Jacobs
You know, I mean, some clients, these kind of topics may come up, some they don't, and that's fine.

09:20
But I do think that for clients where these kind of topics do come up, it's great to just be able to share whatever insight I have and to talk shop. Sometimes there can be advice. I may have experienced something that may be helpful to share or the other way around. So I think it's definitely productive when we talk about these things. But also, as I may say several times during this podcast, this is not for everybody, right?

Amy Laburda
Yeah.

Paul Jacobs 09:49
Everyone has different things that are important to them, and that's fine. So I think that what you don't want to do is try to force something that you're not passionate about, that is not important to you. That's just kind of… that doesn't really do much to help anybody. But if you do have things that — causes or other things that are important to you, this can be such a valuable experience.

Amy Laburda
So you wrote the chapter that we called “Giving Back” in our firm's book The High Achiever’s Guide to Wealth. And I was thinking about…

10:18
We didn't call it “Charitable Giving.” We didn't call it “Philanthropy.” And I think in a financial planning book, the thing you're thinking about with giving back is going to be, often, planned charitable gifts and directed giving and bequests in your will. And all of those things are great. You talk about them in our chapter. We talked about them in season one of the podcast with our colleague Eric Meerman, and we may circle back to them a little bit today. But I think calling it “Giving Back”

10:44
really suggests that charitable giving is one component of sort of a larger universe of ways to support things that you have that passion about, that you feel strongly about. In the chapter, you mention that some younger adults in their 20s and 30s might hesitate if these kind of opportunities come up, because they're like, “Oh, I'm not a big enough deal to do this. I don't have, you know, a big enough role in the community to really be taking this on.” Or maybe they're curious about it, but they're worried about the workload.

11:13
Do you think that those kind of things are just sort of volunteer-flavored imposter syndrome? Or do you think there's something else going on with the sort of hesitancy to put yourself forward in these kind of roles?

Paul Jacobs
I think there are good and bad reasons to say no, right? Honestly, a lot of the time when something, when any kind of opportunity is presented to me to get involved, it's like my first instinct is just to say, no, like, don't have time for it. Sorry, I appreciate you thinking of me, but no. And…

11:41
And a lot of the time that can be the right answer. You don't want to bite off more than you can chew. You don't want to get involved in something if your heart isn't really into it. Imposter syndrome can be an issue. You know, you don't want to sell yourself short. I think the reason a lot of people say no may actually be the opposite. They may think, “What if I'm… you know, I have these skills. What if they see it and just try to bury me in work? You know, what if… I don't want a second full-time job. I don't want to get clobbered and have them just kind of throw me in the deep end of the pool.”

12:10
So to that, I would say that in general, I don't think that's how nonprofit organizations work. I mean, if you're dealing with volunteers who have full-time jobs, who have other commitments, they're not going to ask you to do things that are unrealistic. So even if you can only offer an hour or two a week, or five or 10 hours a month, a lot of time they're going to be extremely happy to get that from you versus getting zero. They're not going to ask you to work 40 hour weeks

12:37
and come in on weekends and burn the midnight oil, because then they'll just lose all their volunteers. That's not a sustainable model.

Amy Laburda
Right.

Paul Jacobs
And another thought is, you may be evaluating a nonprofit, kind of working your way up, deciding if it's a good fit or not. But a lot of the time, it goes both ways. It's kind of like a job interview. You're interviewing them, but they're interviewing you. It goes both ways. And so you may enjoy participating in an organization,

13:06
but the feeling has to be mutual, right? So just because some of the things out there that may be an opportunity, I wouldn't kind of race to a conclusion of a bad outcome. You can kind of dip your toe and work your way up, and try to find a way to make it work.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, I mean, as you said, if you're seriously considering a board seat, a leadership role with a nonprofit, ideally it should be for an organization that you care about, right? That it's something that really…

13:32
either you think is important to put forward or that you have some connection to, like a faith organization or an alumni organization, maybe that kind of thing. And I think that sort of passion is a really key component for the kind of thing you're talking about, because it feeds energy, right? And if it's just a position that's draining energy and draining energy from you, that's not going to serve you, and it's not going to serve the nonprofit really.

Paul Jacobs
Right, I mean, we'll talk more about my experience, but I find, you know, even if you work hard on something and maybe things don't work out perfectly,

14:02
it's not something to feel bad about. You know, you did your best. It's not like this is something that you were relying on for income or to support your family or anything like that. So I think that it can feel good to do your best. And other people will appreciate it. They'll see that as well and appreciate that as well.

Amy Laburda
So when you were considering the board seat or some of these other leadership positions that you've held, other than the sort of emotional side, like, “do I feel strongly about this” level of the question,

14:29
were there other pros and cons that you were weighing at the time? Did you sort of have a practical checklist, or did it just vary depending on where you were and what the position was?

Paul Jacobs
I think there are benefits to getting involved in other organizations. If you get involved and you find you're not getting benefits, that can be a good reason to reconsider, I'd say. But first of all, again, just learning how other organizations work. A lot of us, we know the ropes. We know how things work

14:58
where we work or maybe other things that we're involved with, but just different cultures, different personalities and types of people. You can get a lot… it can just make things so much richer to get exposure to that. And it can make you better — again, going back to how you work with your coworkers or your family, it can just really expand your horizons,

15:20
skills. You certainly come in with skills, but it's not like you're a finished product. So you can build your professional, your leadership skills. It can be a chance to experiment. There may be something that… a risk you wouldn't be comfortable taking in your professional life, but you could be perfectly comfortable taking in your volunteer life. So all kinds of opportunities to get exposure to different things, to take risks. I think there's plenty of upsides. The downside, I guess,

15:48
back to your question is just that you aren't receiving that. And then that could be a sign that your time could be better spent elsewhere.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. I'll do you the benefit of assuming this isn't a thing you have personal experience with necessarily, but I don't know if it's a thing you've run into with clients or just a thing that you've looked out for: Are there any red flags people should be looking for for a badly run nonprofit, where you get there and you're like, “Oh, this isn't passing the smell test. There's something going on here.”

16:15
Or are they just the same sort of things you wouldn't want to have in a for-profit employment, on the whole?

Paul Jacobs
Sure. Look, I mean, my experiences were definitely very positive, but I mean, you use your imagination. There's all kinds of things that could be a red flag. If the culture is very stuck and you're not going to be able to get much done, that's a problem. If the financial side of things are so bad that it really is just in danger of collapsing, that's a red flag.

16:45
And also just, you know, people aren't respectful. People aren't appreciative of your time and your efforts. You know, there's plenty of reasons that a nonprofit can go bad. But, you know, I think similar to the for-profit world, you know, the cream rises to the top, right? So your good organizations flourish and grow, and organizations that don't have their act together and don't function smoothly, a lot of the time those are the ones that don't last long.

Amy Laburda
Yeah.

17:13
And I imagine too, it's important to keep in mind, you know, the sunk cost fallacy. As a person who has been accused of being a perfectionist in the past, I think it's very tempting, especially with an organization who on paper you deeply support to go in and say, “I can fix it. I can put enough energy into this cup to deal with whatever's going wrong.” And I think, you know,

17:35
it sounds like it's important to step back and be like, hey, if this organization isn't working for you, there are tons of good organizations out there that are willing to take your time and your effort and put them more productively to use, it sounds like.

Paul Jacobs
Right, I mean, we all have skills. Some of us may have more confidence in those skills than others. But again, I think as long as you have skills to offer, organizations are going to recognize that and try to find a spot for you.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. So when you approach a volunteer position, most people are also going to have a

18:04
day job that is supporting them, that may be taking the main part of their energy. Maybe they have family commitments. You're putting this on what is probably a pretty full plate. How did you, in general, sort of approach balancing, wanting to give your best to your volunteer position while also not robbing your obligations to your employer, to your family, to the other parts of your life that are important to you?

Paul Jacobs
Yeah. As time passes and your life changes and evolves, it’s always important to have a firm

18:34
grip on what your priorities are. You know, what is the number one? What is the number two? What is the number 20? And not get confused and start mixing these things up. So everyone's got busy lives. Everyone can fill their time with all kinds of different things. But anytime you add something new, there is kind of a shuffling. That is an opportunity to take a fresh look at things and make sure that you're not ordering your priorities in the wrong way. There are situations where,

19:02
with my volunteer experience, for example, I may just have to say, “No, sorry, I can't meet that deadline.” And again, I'm perfectly comfortable saying that. And I think that it's perfectly reasonable for organizations to accept that from your volunteers. But if it's my day job or my family, then I'm much more inclined to burn the candle at both ends or try to find a way to make things work. I think there are problems when people are just trying to get everything done and be perfect with everything

19:32
that they're, you know, to all masters and it just starts… it can be overwhelming. So you can have different levels of care to different parts of your life. And for me, that's, that's been a way to kind of make this all work. Because I think if I… I could throw myself into volunteer work and really, but you know, it would mean sacrificing other things that I don't want to sacrifice.

Amy Laburda
Right. And you know, eventually burnout comes into play, I'm sure, where you just physically wear yourself out, and then you're no good to the nonprofit or anyone else at that point.

Paul Jacobs 20:02
Exactly. Yeah.

Amy Laburda
So for someone who, like you, realizes it's time to go, or maybe is waffling and isn't sure whether it's time to go — say, you know, there's nothing wrong with the organization. You're not reacting to any red flags. It's just you've been there. You've done some good. Your priorities have shifted or other things in your life have changed. How would you suggest is the sort of gracious and graceful way to walk away leaving a good taste in everyone's mouth, you know, not leaving the organization high and dry, but also

20:31
recognizing that volunteers come and go in these places?

Paul Jacobs
OK, so let's talk about stepping down. So first of all, a lot of the time it may not even really be a decision. There may be term limits involved. If you're involved in something that has a one or two year term limit, for example, then the term may end and the decision may be made for you. You may be thanked for your service and replaced by someone else. And term limits certainly serve a good purpose, to avoid stagnation and just keep

21:02
keep getting fresh new ideas, have a pipeline of fresh new ideas coming into your organization. If term limits are not an issue or you're asked to re-up, still also it's always good to just be reevaluating your involvement and making sure that it's working for both sides. Is it still rewarding? Is it still enjoyable? If the answer is no, totally fine to stop and try to find something else to take its place. If the answer is yes, then that's...

21:31
that's a very good thing. And you know, there's no, there's… It may be possible to stay involved for many, many years to come. Now might be a good time to talk about why I stepped away from that first synagogue that I was involved with, with their budget/finance committee. As I mentioned, you know, there was a lot of push and pull in terms of resources and just not enough to go around. That was not really the problem. I was OK with that. You know, I believed in the cause. I believed in the organization. So I was happy to kind of try to get…

21:59
find compromises and find ways to move forward. I guess really two things happened in 2016. First of all, 2016 is when my second son was born, Lincoln. And so, again, anytime you have a major life change, that's a good time to just reassess and reevaluate things. And so as I mentioned, after I stepped away from that synagogue, it was a few years before I got involved in another one. And a lot of that was just because I wanted to have time at home with my kids, with my family.

22:29
A lot, you know — neither of my kids slept for the first two years. So, you know, it was, with everything that was going on in life, it did make sense to take a break and let someone else take the wheel. The other thing more specific to the actual work involved was, you know… We were always making recommendations. We weren't empowered to do things, like, we were empowered to make recommendations, but I couldn't, you know, hire or fire,

22:58
or make dramatic changes to how the money is allocated. We were making recommendations and they were starting to get rejected by the board, by executive management, and that's fine. It's not something where I was sure that I was right and I was sure they were wrong. But if you're doing the work, if you're working hard, you're trying to come up with recommendations, you're seeing them not pass, those are the kinds of situations, again, where it can make sense to reassess.

23:28
Do I want to keep doing this? Do I want to keep putting my head down and potentially running — trying to run through a brick wall? Or maybe is it something where it could be better for everyone if I take a break? So I left on very good terms. Still have many friends there. Everything is positive. I wish them well.

Amy Laburda
Yeah.

Paul Jacobs
They're still operating. And they still face the same challenges as before. But

23:54
I think it was nice for me to see that I left and it's not like things collapsed immediately or anything like that. They're OK. There's other people that can do this work. It's not like I was the only person that could contribute. But I don't regret stepping away when I did. I think it was, you know, for those reasons, it was the right time to step away.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, it sounds like you recognized that, at the time, you guys just weren't aligned, you know, for whatever reason. And that's not someone was right, someone was wrong, necessarily. But it's like… “Oh,

24:23
someone else is going to be better positioned to give them the recommendations that they want in this moment.” So I think also no listener will be surprised that I am delighted that the answer also seems to revolve around communication, because I think leaving on good terms is very much about being honest and upfront and just, you know, saying, “Hey, this is what's up with me. Goodbye. Godspeed.” Rather than ghosting them or just sort of, you know, leaving things undone. I can't imagine

24:51
as your coworker that you would ever do that. But having worked in other volunteer organizations, I know some people do. So I think it's… The conscious handoff sounds like it was also key to preserving those relationships.

Paul Jacobs
You know, I remember early on my board tenure in the first synagogue, I met with the president of the board and I started apologizing. I just like, “I'm sorry I'm not doing more.” And she said, “Oh, no, no, no. Volunteers don’t apologize.

25:20
Whatever you do is greatly appreciated and we know you'll do more in the future.” But yeah, I don't think… So that really stuck with me. I'm a believer that, you know, volunteers weren't… You're not getting paid to do this. You're not getting physically enriched from doing this. Everyone's just putting forth their best effort. And, you know, whether things work out one way or the other, you shouldn't feel bad, shouldn't apologize, shouldn't have regrets. And also, you know, you should treat

25:47
others the way you would want to be treated in those situations.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. And I think you also made the point in your last response that I think is helpful that, you know, a lot of these things are for a season, not for your entire life. And that's natural. And that's how things go. I think it can be easy — obviously this is going to be somewhat temperament driven. I think some people listening to this are probably like “Why does she keep going on about feeling bad about leaving? You just leave and it's fine.”

26:14
And I wish those people well, but I think people who sometimes feel passionately about the causes that a nonprofit is supporting are often the people who tend to pour a lot of themselves into things. So I think we're here giving you the permission on this podcast that if it's time to go, you can go and that's fine and expected. So I thank the people who don't feel that way for their patience with my questions on that line.

26:42
For a moment, I want to zoom back out a little bit. We talked in our conversation with Eric Meerman last season about some of the more traditional ways to give back, which I will link in the show notes for people who are interested in that kind of philanthropy. But one thing you touched on in your chapter that we didn't cover that season was starting your own nonprofit. If you're really passionate about a cause and you're not finding an organization that does that, or you're not connecting with one,

27:09
or if you're just very entrepreneurial and like that's the gift that you have to give, you may sort of want to think about starting an organization. I commend the chapter to listeners for a more practical sort of approach to the ins and outs of actually starting a business, but on a big-picture level: So many nonprofits already exist, why would you think someone would want to start a new organization, sit down and sort of go through all the work of setting it up,

27:36
rather than partnering with an organization that already exists?

Paul Jacobs
So in terms of the why, it may seem overwhelming at first to create a new organization, but a lot of people do it. There are almost 2 million nonprofits in the U.S. And if you are considering creating a new one, I think it is important to

27:59
get the lay of the land. Are there organizations that are doing the kind of work you envision and they're doing it better than you would? Then maybe it would make sense just to partner up rather than try to reinvent the wheel. But if you look around and you feel like there is a need and it's not being met, then yeah, what better reason to start a new organization than that? To try to meet people where they're at and deliver to the people that really need it.

Amy Laburda
You and I sat down last season and talked about,

28:28
in a big way, starting a business, which I think it seems like there's a lot of overlap. In general, would you say it's a pretty similar process, starting a for-profit business and starting a nonprofit? Is it mainly just different paperwork or are there sort of bigger-picture things people need to think about that are different?

Paul Jacobs
I'm still recovering from that conversation we had, Amy.

Amy Laburda
It's a great conversation. People should listen to it.

Paul Jacobs
Yeah. So

28:53
there's more overlap than people might think. You might think that starting a nonprofit is just going to be a very different endeavor than a for-profit entity. But when you look at the, you know… just our chapter has a long list of steps that are involved, and there's plenty of overlap. You know, where is the money going to come from? How are decisions going to get made? What is the business model? You know, what kind of expenses and revenues are you expecting? A lot of this looks a lot like a for-profit organization.

29:21
There are some different steps. I think in some ways it can be more challenging to set up and administer a nonprofit than a for-profit. I remember last time we discussed this, we talked about how it can seem overwhelming to start up a for-profit, but in many ways it's not that bad. For whatever reason, I do find, personally with my experience, that it can be a bit tougher to get a nonprofit off the ground. I guess if you're dealing with tax exemption and things like that, there are just some extra hoops

29:51
to jump through, in terms of dealing with regulators and making sure that everything is on the up and up with your nonprofit.

Amy Laburda
Right. Well, I think we've scratched the surface of a very complex topic today, and we could probably continue talking for quite a long time, but I appreciate you getting extra personal with me. I think this has been one of the more personal “Something Personal” episodes we've had. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to touch base with you and see if there was anything,

30:19
sort of as a financial planner or as someone who has had these positions yourself, or as both, that you really think people should bear in mind about getting involved with a nonprofit organization or taking on some of these leadership roles?

Paul Jacobs
So a few things that I can close with. First of all, another early volunteer experience I remember, I mean, it was dealing with a financial decision, but I think I was making the argument “This line item, it loses money. We should just get rid of it. It's losing money.” And the person said,

30:48
“Remember, this is a not-for-profit. It's not a for-profit.” And so it's important to kind of keep that in mind, that there are differences. You can have the same situation and a different answer, a different correct answer, I'd say, when you're in the not-for-profit space versus the for-profit. If something is losing money, but it's doing a lot of good for the not-for-profit, maybe you really try extra hard to find ways to supplement that and keep that

31:17
operation going, whereas with a for profit, it may just be, “Oh, no, just, you know, you got to you got to nip that in the bud because it's losing money.” So just constantly reminding yourself about the different mindset that goes into profit versus not-for-profit. Something else I always advise is reading the room, right? Different organizations operate differently. You don't want to walk in and just assume you know better than everybody. It can take time to learn the ropes. I have a funny story, actually.

31:45
You know, actually, Amy, you know, I feel like a recurring theme — another recurring theme in this, in this podcast is your chase, your hunt for a one-size-fits-all solution.

Amy Laburda
[laughs] I'm losing hope. Yes.

Paul Jacobs
Every episode you ask if there's a one-size solution and the answer is a resounding no.

Amy Laburda
Yeah.

Paul Jacobs
But I've got a… I've got a one-size-fits-all solution for you. So this... It was the first board meeting of the year. And so, you know, part of it is just

32:14
getting to know each other and introducing ourselves. And there was this new board member, this was at the Conservative synagogue, so this was several years ago. And I think he was pretty new to the community overall, but he was a lawyer, he was very accomplished and successful, so they invited him to join the board. And he came in and went full bull in the China shop, just telling everybody how it's got to be

32:39
and not stopping. And I think after going on and on, I think someone just kind of tapped him on the shoulder and whispered it in his ear. And he stopped talking. And then I believe he was just disinvited for it. He never joined another meeting after that.

Amy Laburda
Oh no.

Paul Jacobs
So, you know, good guy. His heart was in the right place. But just, I think it's safe to say one size fits all. Like, don't do that.

Amy Laburda 33:03
Yeah, fair enough.

Paul Jacobs
Don’t just come in and start yelling at everybody about how you have the answers and they're doing everything wrong. So that was funny, I always remember that. That was just a fond memory of what not to do. And just in closing, I'd say that going back to my original point of just the value of this kind of experience and just how much better I think it can make your life if you do have something that's a cause that's important to you. I've been with Palisades Hudson over 20 years now.

33:31
And I always say that one of the reasons I love working for the company is I can see very clearly the impact my work has day in, day out on people's lives. I don't work for nameless, faceless people. I know exactly who I'm working for, and I can see… When we do a good job, I can see the payoff. And that's also what I love about nonprofit work, is if things are going the way they should, it is very easy to see the...

33:57
result of your hard work. It's very easy to feel the benefit and to really appreciate the experience along the way. So I think it's great when you can work hard and have great outcomes come out of it. And that's what's kept me coming back for more all these years with my volunteer work.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, I can attest that you've put your money where your mouth is as far as also encouraging our coworkers to pursue this kind of thing, if something speaks to them.

34:24
I know at least one or two have taken you up on that, if they wouldn't have done it anyway, maybe they would have. But yeah, I agree, as someone who has also volunteered, I think it's so intensely rewarding and you know, you get so much out of these kinds of opportunities when they come up. So really worth, you know, all the blood, sweat and tears you might put into it if you find the right fit, for sure.

34:45
Paul, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. It was really a pleasure to sit down and talk with you today. And I hope our listeners have enjoyed you getting a little more personal with us about volunteering and nonprofits. I think it was a really fascinating conversation for me at least.

Paul Jacobs
It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Amy.

Amy Laburda 35:02
“Something Personal” is a production of Palisades Hudson Financial Group, a financial planning and investment firm headquartered in South Florida. Our other offices are in Atlanta; Austin; the Portland, Oregon metropolitan area; and the New York City metro area. “Something Personal” is hosted by me, Amy Laburda. Our producers are Ali Elkin and Joseph Ranghelli. Joseph Ranghelli is also our director, editor and mixer. Our firm has written two books:

35:31
Looking Ahead: Life, Family, Wealth and Business After 55 and The High Achiever's Guide to Wealth, which offers advice for younger professionals, entrepreneurs, athletes and performers. Both books are available on Amazon, in paperback and as e-books.